Thursday, March 30, 2006

Another example wherein we disagree with our Salafi brethren

Another example, inshaAllah, from Sh. al-Uthaimeen's RH book عقيدة أهل السنة والجماعة



ونؤمن بأن الله عز وجل عليّ على خلقه بذاته وصفاته لقوله تعالـى: (وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ) (سورة البقرة من الآية:255) ، قوله: (وَهُوَ الْقَاهِرُ فَوْقَ عِبَادِهِ وَهُوَ الْحَكِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ) (الأنعام:18)

ونؤمن بأنه (خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ يُدَبِّرُ الْأَمْرَ)(يونس:الآية3). واستـواؤه على العرش: علوه عليه بذاته علوَّاً خاصاً يليق بجلاله وعظمته لا يعلم كيفيتـه إلا هو.


The above was translated by the followers of sh. al-Uthaimeen RH as:

We believe that Allah is well above His creatures in His Person and His Attributes, because He says: "He is the High, the Great" (2:22); "He is Supreme over His servants, and He is the Wise, the All-aware" (6:18 ).

We believe that He "created the Heavens and the Earth in six days, then He settled Himself on the throne; He manages everything" (10:3). His "settling on the throne" means that He is sitting in person on His throne in a way that is becoming to His majesty and greatness. Nobody except He knows exactly how He is sitting.


[Taken from: http://www.markazibnabdulwahhab.com/ ]



As for the accuracy of the translation, well where does one start!?

BUT, It seems to me that they have tried to translate the passages in a manner that is as literal as possible!


So to them al-Uthaimeen's statement واستـواؤه على العرش means "settling on the throne" and علوه عليه بذاته علوَّاً خاصاً يليق بجلاله وعظمته لا يعلم كيفيتـه إلا هو means "that He is sitting in person on His throne in a way that is becoming to His majesty and greatness."


Tha accepted translation to our Salafi brethren seems very strange to me but I think that they are perhaps drawing from some of the shaykh's other statements - Allah knows best!

What is clear is that the translated statement contradicts the position of the majority of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah on many issues.

For example, Imam al-Qurtubi and others explained the "Uluw" of Allah in terms of the Uluw of His Majesty, Attributes and Dominion and compare that to what has been mentioned above regarding "sitting in person on His throne, etc".


Anyway, let us put the translation to the side for the moment as some may argue that it is the translators fault [maybe he is an anthropomorphist??].

Even if one looks at the Arabic statement alone there are enough problems and contradictions within it are there not?

For example, the use of the innovated phrase "bi dhatihi" in relation to al-istiwa - something that I have not seen reported from the Salaf and actually contradicts the principle of "bila kayf" does it not?

Where is the proof in the Quran and Sunnah for its usage in relation to istiwa? Then, who from the first three generations used it?

In fact, the likes of Ibn Hajar, al-Dhahabi, Ibn al-Jawzi and others rejected its use due to the obvious anthropomorphic implications did they not?!

Ibn al-Jawzī said in Daf‘Shubah al-Tashbīh:

“Whoever says: He established Himself over the Throne bi dhātihi, has diverted the sense of the Qur’ānic verse to that of sensory perception.… The anthropomorphists said: He is established over the Throne ‘in person.’ But this addition is not related by anyone! It is only what they understood with their senses, namely, that one is not established other than with one’s own person.”


Now, some might say, NO, using the phrase bi dhatihi in relation to istiwa is not contradicting the principle of "bila kayf".

Then they would have disagreed with the Imam who the salafis always love to quote over and over on the issue of istiwa, Imam Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr [even though he was refuted and criticised for some errors on his part], because he held the position that to say bi dhātihi in the hadīth of descent is modality and is forbidden by Ahl al-Sunna. He states:

Others say that He descends with His Essence (bidhātihi). Ah.mad ibn ‘Abd Allāh told us that his father told him: Ah.mad ibn Khālid narrated to us: Yah.yā ibn ‘Uthmān ibn S.ālih. narrated to us in Egypt: “I heard Nu‘aym ibn H.ammād say the h.adīth of the descent as he was refuting the position of the Jahmiyya and Nu‘aym said: ‘He descends with His essence while He remains on His kursī.’” This is worthless in the view of the people of understanding among Ahl al-Sunna for it is a modality.”

[Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr, al-Tamhīd (7:144)]


Elsewhere, Imam Dhahabi rejects its use on many occasions:

Al-Dhahabī states in the Siyar: “There is no need for the expression bi dhātihi, and it disturbs the soul.”[Al-Dhahabī, Siyar (Arna’ūt. ed. 19:607).]


And Allah knows best

12 Comments:

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11:15 pm  
Blogger anatoxin said...

وسمعت الحاكم أبا عبد الله في كتابه (التاريخ) الذي جمعه لأهل نيسابور، وفي كتابه (معرفة الحديث) اللذين جمعهما ولم يسبق إلى مثلهما يقول: سمعت أبا جعفر محمد بن صالح بن هانئ يقول: سمعت أبا بكر محمد بن إسحاق بن خزيمة يقول: من لم يقل بأن الله عز وجل على عرشه، فوق سبع سمواته، فهو كافر بربه، حلال الدم، يستتاب فإن تاب
-,

عقيدة السلف أصحاب الحديث

9:38 pm  
Blogger Abul Junaydah said...

There is something else that hasnt really been explored in the English language (as far as i can tell) and that is Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin's previously held beleif that the Ma'iyah ("withness" of Allah)is a "Mai'yah Dhatiyah", i.e that He, Jalla Sha'nuhu, is with us with his Divine Dhat. This position of his was refuted by none other than Hamud at Tuwaijri, the muhaddith of Saudi Arabia whose son runs Dar al Hadith al Khairiyah in Makkah (or last i heard). I dont have the material with me at the moment, but those who read arabic can refer to Ibn Uthaymins book al Qawaid al Muthla and in the appendix, there is a mention of this issue.

7:48 pm  
Blogger faqir said...

Asalamu alaykum brother abu junaydah, have you seen this text on-line? It would be worth exploring this issue. By the way, when is your blog going to be back on-line?

9:46 pm  
Blogger Um AzZubair S. - أم الزبير said...

ABUL JUNAYDAH said:
(that is Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin's previously held beleif that the Ma'iyah ("withness" of Allah)is a "Mai'yah Dhatiyah", i.e that He, Jalla Sha'nuhu, is with us with his Divine Dhat.)

This is a daring false accusation, you said yourself go and look in his book al-Qawaid al-Muthla and I did, and I found that he didn't believe in such a thing and he himself explained what he meant and that the claim that he believes in such a thing is false.

Here is what Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin rahimahu Allah said in al-Qawaid al-Muthla:
( (تنبيه ثالث) اعلم أيها القارئ الكريم، أنه صدر مني كتابة لبعض الطلبة تتضمن ما قلته في بعض المجالس في معية الله تعالى لخلقه ذكرت فيها: أن عقيدتنا أن لله تعالى معية حقيقة ذاتية تليق به، وتقتضي إحاطته بكل شيء علماً وقدرة، وسمعاً وبصراً، وسلطاناً وتدبيراً، وأنه سبحانه منزه أن يكون مختلطاً بالخلق أو حالاً في أمكنتهم، بل هو العلي بذاته وصفاته، وعلوه من صفاته الذاتية التي لا ينفك عنها، وأنه مستو على عرشه كما يليق بجلاله وأن ذلك لا ينافي معيته؛ لأنه تعالى (لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ)(173).

وأردت بقولي: "ذاتية" توكيد حقيقة معيته تبارك وتعالى.

وما أردت أنه مع خلقه سبحانه في الأرض، كيف وقد قلت في نفس هذه الكتابة كما ترى: إنه سبحانه منزه أن يكون مختلطاً بالخلق أو حالاً في أمكنتهم، وأنه العلي بذاته وصفاته، وأن علوه من صفاته الذاتية التي لا ينفك عنها، وقلت فيها أيضاً ما نصه بالحرف الواحد:

"ونرى أن من زعم أن الله بذاته في كل مكان فهو كافر أو ضال إن اعتقده، وكاذب إن نسبه إلى غيره من سلف الأمة أو أئمتها". أهـ.

ولا يمكن لعاقل عرف الله وقدره حق قدره أن يقول: إن الله مع خلقه في الأرض، وما زلت ولا أزال أنكر هذا القول في كل مجلس من مجالسي جرى فيه ذكره. وأسأل الله تعالى أن يثبتني وإخواني المسلمين بالقول الثابت في الحياة الدنيا وفي الآخرة.)

8:58 pm  
Blogger Ansari_UK said...

Asalaam Aalikum bro

Are you the Al Faqir who used to be on Gawaher forums?

Nice site & contents btw

10:48 pm  
Blogger abuzaifah said...

Salaam Alaikum,

I have viewed the content of this website, and found that the aqueedah (creed) is a Habash aqueedah. Habashi aqueedah can be found among a group of people living in Lebanon and some in Syria. They belong to Abdullah Al Harari Al Habashi.
In Austraalia, over 33 Islamic groups and organizations have warned Muslims from the danger of this Habashi group.
In one of the Mosques here in Australia, Habashi people have worked and tried hard to rule the Mosque. There was a strong opposition from the community against their invasion. Habashis, who hold the same beliefs as in this website, used tp pray alone. They pray in groups of two or three, sometimes maybe four or rarely more. Other Muslim community usually pray togather (the whole community).

When Habashis came to the Mosque, they created a very big devision. They also are funded by the Australian government.

I have written about 2000 word account of what they have done to the Mosque. I did not judge or falsify any one. I just wrote what I have seen and heard. I'm so happy to share what I wrote with you or with any one.

P. S. An Ex-Christan fellow embraced Islam because he was sick of Tawasul in Christianity. When Habashis came with the belief in Tawasul, this new Muslim brother was so confused. But, however, he rmained Muslim--Alhamdulilah!

I pray to Allaah to guide us all, and not to make us put a dead person to be in between Allaah and us, like Abdul'Gadir Al Jailani or Abdurrahamn Al Ozaiee, for those CANNOT help themselves now, so they can't help us either!

Muhamed
Sydney, Australi
abuzaifah@hotmail.com

5:12 am  
Blogger abuzaifah said...

If anyone wishes to comment on what I have written, it's most appreciated to email his comments to me on abuzaifah@hotmail.com.

May Allaah, The Exalted, guide us all!

Muhamed

5:20 am  
Blogger mystery said...

salam Faqir bhai

plz help me. i will be really grateful to you. i am looking for the article you posted about the Noor hadiths of our beloved Prophet (SAW).

i dont know how to post comments and read the replies in this blog. luckily i find it once agian today.

can you plz either email me the link of that article or email me the article itself.

plz help me out bro i need that article. plz send it to me as soon as you can.

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maypride@gmail.com

10:32 pm  
Blogger mystery said...

salam Faqir bhai

plz help me. i will be really grateful to you. i am looking for the article you posted about the Noor hadiths of our beloved Prophet (SAW).

i dont know how to post comments and read the replies in this blog. luckily i find it once agian today.

can you plz either email me the link of that article or email me the article itself.

plz help me out bro i need that article. plz send it to me as soon as you can.

Omer
maypride@gmail.com

10:34 pm  
Blogger mystery said...

salam Faqir bhai

plz help me. i will be really grateful to you. i am looking for the article you posted about the Noor hadiths of our beloved Prophet (SAW).

i dont know how to post comments and read the replies in this blog. luckily i find it once agian today.

can you plz either email me the link of that article or email me the article itself.

plz help me out bro i need that article. plz send it to me as soon as you can.

Omer
maypride@gmail.com

10:34 pm  
Blogger abdul raheem syed ( Sufi786) said...

Good blog brother keep it up

2:23 am  

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